Monday, February 26, 2007

Christian Exegetes and "The Jews"

I have some questions for all Christian exegetes who have joined in the controversy of late surrounding "the Jews."

Why do you associate Biblical scripture and prophesy pertaining to Jews from 2000 or more years ago to the people who today call themselves "Jews"?

What proof have you seen from any one of these people who today call themselves "Jews" that they're true blood descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob?

Don't you think that basing matters of faith and religion which, in turn, affect nearly every other aspect of our lives upon something so flimsy as a person or group's verbal claim to be "Jews" is irresponsible to put it lightly?

Why do you refer to the terrorist-founded, racial supremacist, Old Testament negating, anti-Christ nation founded by self-styled "Jews" as "Israel"?

Are you a thinking person or a parrot?

If you answered "thinking person" to the above question, why do you parrot the terms "Jews" and "Israel" in reference to people who have no legitimate claim to either title? Because they said so? If so, don't you think that's a very foolish thing to do? I think it is.

Can you see the confusion that you create and the pitfalls which await your readers and listeners due to your unquestioning acceptance of the completely unsubstantiated claims of self-styled "Jews"?

Is there a more direct and clear prophesy in the entire book of Apocalypse than 2;9 or 3;9?

Shouldn't we then be anticipating a people who say they are "Jews" and are not but do lie.?

Are you aware that the Judaic tradition permits lying to non-Judaics? If so, then why do you take Judaics at their word when they call themselves "Jews" and "Israel"?

Would your religion fall apart if you found out that the people who call themselves "Jews" aren't really Jews? If so, would you consider the possibility that you've, perhaps, invested more capital into the role of "the Jews" in your religion than is prudent to do?

Are you willing to leave it in God's very capable hands to preserve a remnant of true, blood Israel for the fulfilment of His prophesy that may not be identifiable to you or even themselves? Or must you be able to see and touch some "Jews" for your faith to remain unshaken?

Do you think that your readers and listeners would benefit immensely if you made clearer distinctions and used more precise language in dealing with matters pertaining to the religion of the Old Testament and rabbinic Judaism; the Jews of the Bible, and the people who call themselves "Jews" 2000 years later?

Who benefits from sloppy distinctions in these areas?


Itzchak said...

Jewish men from communities which developed in the Near East -- Iran, Iraq, Kurdistan, Yemen -- and European Jews have very similar, almost identical genetic profiles.

"Despite their long-term residence in different countries and isolation from one another, most Jewish populations were not significantly different from one another at the genetic level. The results support the hypothesis that the paternal gene pools of Jewish communities from Europe, North Africa and the Middle East descended from a common Middle Eastern ancestral population, and suggest that most Jewish communities have remained relatively isolated from neighboring non-Jewish communities during and after the Diaspora."
(M.F. Hammer, Proc. Nat'l Academy of Science, May 9, 2000)

Anonymous said...

How is this for a surprise????

Itzchak said...

“Anshei Knesset HaGedolah” – Men of the Great Assembly; founded by Ezra in approximately 520 B.C.E., this institution of Torah Sages led the Jewish People at the beginning of the Second Temple Era (ca. 520 B.C.E. – 70 C.E.). It included Mordechai and the last of the prophets Chaggai, Zechariah and Malachi.

Among the accomplishments of the “Anshei Knesset HaGedolah” were finalizing the contents of the “Tanach,” the 24-Book Hebrew Bible, instituting the “Shemoneh Esray” Prayer (recited at least three times daily, and ultimately to serve as a substitute for the Temple Sacrifices), and the enacting of many Laws to protect and bolster the observance of the Torah Commands.

According to Pirkei Avot (1:1), they are the fifth link in the Chain of Jewish Tradition: 1) Moshe receives it from Sinai and teaches it to 2) Yehoshua to the 3) Elders to the 4) Prophets to the 5) Anshei Knesset HaGedolah, at the end of the Biblical Period (ca. 520 B.C.E.). Pirkei Avot (1:2) also identifies “Shimon HaTzaddik,” Shimon the Righteous, as “among the last of the Men of the Great Assembly,” at the beginning of the Talmudic Period (ca. 200 B.C.E.).

In truth, the “Anshei Knesset HaGedolah” was a transitional institution, that over the approximately 320 years of its existence guided the Jewish People from the Biblical Period to the Talmudic Period, from the Period of “Nisim Niglim,” open, revealed miracles, observed by the entire People, as were the miracles associated with the Exodus from Egypt and the splitting of the Sea of Reeds, and the Miracle performed by Eliyahu HaNavi in his contest with the Prophets of the Baal, to the Period of “Nisim Nistarim,” to more modest and hidden, concealed miracles; as were the Chanukah Miracle of the Oil and the “hidden” miracle of Purim. From the period of “Nevuah,” Prophecy, to the Period of “Tefilah,” Prayer. In Chassidic terms, it was a transition from a Period of “Isarusa Mil’ela,” Arousal from Above, to a Period of “Isarusa Mil’tatoh,” Arousal from Below.

There was a sense among Chaza”l that the “Beit HaMikdash HaSheni,” the Second Holy Temple, would not last, because the Divine Presence was not as concentrated as it had been in the First Temple, and it would be necessary to prepare the People for a long, uncharted journey in the Diaspora, with only the guiding but unseen “Hand of HaShem,” and His “Eyes,” watching from behind the curtain.

Thus, this institution was called “Great” because it “restored the Crown of the Torah” (Yoma 69b and Berachot 33a), served as the spiritual center of Jewish Life for approximately 320 years, and ensured the survival of the Jewish People through the coming harsh conditions of the Diaspora until the arrival of Mashiach ben David, soon and in our days.

disciple said...

Well, that's very interesting, thanks for those. I've always thought it disturbing that believing Christians try to deny Jewishness.

Anonymous said...

question for the jewish guys here. which temple are the israeli's trying to rebuild currently? is this the one where the wailing wall is located?

Anonymous said...

Oh, sure. Believe the lying media. As well as those who cater to the Establishment. Yes, believe that you are truly a Jew (that is fully descended from Judah) or even a pure Semite(descended from Sem), even though the Hebrews in the Old Testament already mingled with the pagan tribes, as shown in Judges.

rev'd up said...

Maurice makes another fine point--those who style themselves "Jews" today are more properly termed "Judaics." They are wanna-be Jews who follow a different religion than that given to the patriarchs. The children of Abraham are children of promise, not children by blood.

Who among us can say with any certitude, that we KNOW our own family blood line back more that 8,9 or 10 generations. There are too many variables, too many opportunites for distortion.

The true children of Abraham and inheritors of God's promise are those who keep God's commandments. The Judaics can't even mannage to keep Moses' 10 Commandments. To wit, Nos. 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9 and No. 10.

Zionist Judaics are very far from the heart of God; but the meek-spirited Christian shall possess the earth, and shall be refreshed in the multitude of peace. The ungodly Judaic seeketh counsel against the just, and gnasheth upon him with his teeth. The Lord shall laugh the Judaic to scorn; for he hath seen that his day is coming.

Itzchak said...

"Maurice makes another fine point--those who style themselves "Jews" today are more properly termed "Judaics." They are wanna-be Jews who follow a different religion than that given to the patriarchs. The children of Abraham are children of promise, not children by blood."
This is complete nonsense...
made up with absolutely no basis in reality..just like so much else that Christianity has mythologized..
Did you read the DNA studies..?

Itzchak said...

"question for the jewish guys here. which temple are the israeli's trying to rebuild currently? is this the one where the wailing wall is located?"
They're not actually trying to rebuild it now, but it is the one where the Western Wall is...
That is the outside wall of the Temple Mount compound..

rev'd up said...

Who are these geneticists conducting these studies? I would suspect they set their experiments up to render the desired results. It would be interesting if they could test the DNA of Hitler, Goebbels, Lenin, Stalin and Bush to see if they make a match. I wonder if you, Itzcak, would test "positive?"

Notably, these studies draw conclusions based on yDNA. I was under the impression that Talmudic Jews traced themselves through the mother, maDNA. The studies are inconclusive in this regard.

More notably, these studies use contemporary samples--no 'old' blood. They tell us nothing about the past, only conjecture.

They prove nothing.

Itzchak said...

Hey Dr. Revved Up:
Your scientific knowledge is admirable, but you can't say it proves nothing.
What is proves is:
T"he results support the hypothesis that the paternal gene pools of Jewish communities from Europe, North Africa and the Middle East descended from a common Middle Eastern ancestral population."
That's not nothing...Tribal identification as a descendant of Aaron, Levi or the other tribes is through the father 'Talmudically'...

Anonymous said...

isn't that herod's temple?

Itzchak said...

Herod expanded the area of the Temple Mount, he expanded the area around the Temple..

"Herod's Temple in Jerusalem was a massive expansion of the Second Temple along with renovations of the entire Temple Mount. Herod the Great's expansion project began around 19 BC. The renovation by Herod began with the building of giant underground vaults upon which the temple would be built so it could be larger than the small flat area on top of Mount Moriah. Ground level at the time was at least 20 ft. (6m) below the current level, as can be seen by walking the Western Wall tunnels. The edge of this platform remains everywhere; part of it forms the Western Wall."

Maurice Pinay said...

"The results support the hypothesis that the paternal gene pools of Jewish communities from Europe, North Africa and the Middle East descended from a common Middle Eastern ancestral population."

Even if this is accepted at face value, and I do not do so, the most this study accomplishes is that it *supports* (not proves) the *hypothesis* (not fact) that the Ashkenazi have some distant genetic link to *some people* (not necessarily Israelites) in the *Middle East* (not necessarily Palestine). Not very impressive. It's certainly not something I'm going to allow to affect my life in any way.

Now the fact that this "research" has taken place at a time when most "scientific study" is funded by corporate grants or funding from special interest groups for the sole purpose of "proving" a predetermined outcome alone is cause for skepticism. So is the fact that the Judaic tradition is a tradition of deception. Why would a people who regularly practice deceit suddenly conduct a scrupulously honest study on their genetics when the wrong outcome could mean the loss of everything they claim based upon their alleged "Jewishness"? That's not how I'd bet it.

I believe it's likely that the test group was pre-selected to assure the outcome. It's done all the time in "science" today, especially when the stakes of the outcome are high.

Nevertheless, even this study admits admixture and absorption of mass conversions: a detail which "itzchak" conveniently left out: "Some genetic studies suggest that Jewish populations show substantial non-Jewish admixture and the occurrence of mass conversion of non-Jews to Judaism (2, 3, 10, 12)."

This, of course, would encompass the mass conversion of Khazars in the 8th century which largely accounts for the genetic character of the Ashkenazi today.

And as "anonymous" has already stated, one only need turn to the Bible to see that admixture was taking place regularly even before Christ. The Edomites were forcefully converted and absorbed into the tribe.

"Hyrcanus conquered the whole of Edom and undertook the forced conversion of its inhabitants to Judaism (Jos., Ant. 13:257ff.). Thenceforth the Edomites became a section of the Jewish people ... (Encyclopeadia Judaica, "Edom")

The "Jewish" king Herod was in fact an Edomite and he mingled blood with the highest Jewish priestly families. Kenites, Gibeonites, Cherethites, Pelethites and others were converted and absorbed.

So talk of "Jewish" racial purity 2000 and more years after all of this admixture and mass conversions were taking place is patently absurd.

Itzchak said...

Hey Mr. Pinay: Nice to hear from you.
(Your comments on the scientific methods are too silly to comment on.)
We're not into racial purity by the way, anyone is welcome to become Jewish if they resonate with the covenant. There have always been people converting (except when Christianity made it illegal). Now there are more people than ever converting to Judaism as they are drawn to the truth of the teaching.
And they're all welcome.
You too in case you're seriously interested in connecting to the Creator and not through a silly non existent mediator.

Anonymous said...

maurice made a point that i was going to ask about...namely that as herod was an edomite and God's hatred of esau is well documented...why then do the jews hole herod is such high esteem?

Anonymous said...

typo on previous post...should read "hold" instead of "hole"

Itzchak said...

He's not held in high esteem..

"After putting down the Judean/Parthian revolt against their rule, Rome appointed Herod king of Judea. Herod had complete authority, and he used it ruthlessly. He established an enormous secret police force, brutally killed anyone suspected of plotting against him, and created Roman peace by slaughtering all dissidents.
Herod controlled the sacrificial cult by placing a lackey in the position of High Priest. In any of his appointees was foolish enough to displease him, Herod killed him and replaced him with another lackey..... Although Herod was a terrible tyrant, his buildings and fortresses remain awesome architectural achievements even today."

Maurice Pinay said...

We're not into racial purity by the way ...

That's a good one, itzchak!

Thanks for the laugh.

You may want to relay that message to the lawmakers of your racist little country. They seem to have a much different opinion on the matter than you express here which is plainly evident in "Israel's" racist marriage laws.

And the racism that exists between the Ashkenazi, Sephardi, Ethiopian, etc. divisions of "Jewry" is no longer a secret, itzchak.

We've already covered the racist spiritual teachings of Judaism covering the alleged extra souls of the "Jew" and the derivation of non-Jews from the "impure kelipot" so there's no need to rehash that, is there?

I'm afraid that these and countless other inconvenient facts make a mockery of your claim.

But, by all means, continue misrepresenting your backwards, superstitious, racist religion as a path to enlightenment. You may bag a few suckers yet.

How much are the rabbis charging for "conversion" to Judaism these days?

Itzchak said...

"And the racism that exists between the Ashkenazi, Sephardi, Ethiopian, etc. divisions of "Jewry" is no longer a secret, itzchak."-
The number of marriages between people of those backgrounds is increasing rapidly every few years.
"How much are the rabbis charging for "conversion" to Judaism these days?"
I'm sure I can get you a wholesale rate...

Itzchak said...

Your understandings are so simplistic...anyone interested can become Jewish...tha'ts the polar opposite of racism.

Maurice Pinay said...

Kabbalistic works and the writings of those influenced by the kabbala contain even more essential distinctions between Jews and gentiles. In the 20th century Rabbi Abraham Isaac Kook wrote that "the difference between the Israelite soul... and the souls of all non-Jews, no matter what their level, is bigger and deeper than the difference between the human soul and the animal soul." (Yair Sheleg, Haaretz June 28, 2005)

Itzchak said...

Many rabbis, scholars and others don't agree with that perspective and question its theological underpinnings.
The fact that anybody can become Jewish also indicates that there is something profoundly wrong with that 'understanding'.

Itzchak said...

Also from Rav Kook"
"1. The heart must be filled with love for all.

2. The love for all creation comes first, then comes the love for all mankind, and then follows the love for the Jewish people..."
from an essay about Love.

rev'd up said...

Interesting that the boldest movement in world Jewry today, the Chabad Lubavich, has a stated goal of breaking down barriers between differing classes of Jews; not between Jew and Goyim. Their aim is to make the Goyim well-mannered, profitable pigs.

Quoted from Chabad Lubavich:
-Perhaps we should withdraw and become an isolationist community, concerned only with our own survival and developing our “chosenness” solely to our own advantage? That might indeed serve our own interests to a degree, but it has always been a key component of G-d’s plan that we, the People of Torah, should share with mankind the way towards hope and purpose.

No, Judaism is not a proselytizing religion. It does not seek converts. We believe that every person has a mission to fulfill in G-d’s creation, and can be deemed worth of the Almighty's rewards -- both in This World and in The World To Come -- providing, of course, that he or she accepts and follows the guidelines that have been Divinely ordained for him or her. For the Jew, this means the 613 commandments. For the non-Jew -- i.e. all “descendants of Noah” -- it means the basic program of ethical monotheism built on seven commandments, the universal moral code called “The Seven Laws for the Descendants of Noah.”...Within the Jewish community, too, there is a greatly heightened awareness of the obligation to utilize one’s contacts with non-Jewish friends and acquaintances not only for material concerns but also to impart moral influence, to inform and educate about the Noahide Laws.-

The Lubavich ardently subscribes to the writings of Maimonides, a well documented racist bigot. Are blacks invited to become full members of the brotherhood? How about a black Levite? I can just imagine Rabbi Menachem M. Schneerson, of someone elses blessed memory, would love to see a black, arab or scandanavian prime-minister of Israel.

Itzchak said...

This is idiocy..
"How about a black Levite?"
You can't 'become' a white levite either. It's one particular family...Descendants of Levi...levite men have married black women and their sons are at least partially black levites.

" I can just imagine Rabbi Menachem M. Schneerson, of someone elses blessed memory, would love to see a black, arab or scandanavian prime-minister of Israel."
There are black, arab and scandinavian politicians in Israel.

You don't like Noah?

Itzchak said...

Actually it wouldn't be that hard to have a black levite..if a levite married a black women and their son (who is a levite -not the daughter) married a black women...and so forth ...a couple of times like this and you'd have a pretty black levite...
are there many black traditional catholics?

Maurice Pinay said...

Many rabbis, scholars and others don't agree with that perspective and question its theological underpinnings.

As always, there is a dialectic in Judaic matters. There is a left and right which serves to make it apparently "impossible" to pin down the Judaic position on matters.

But what you state is misleading at best. The rabbinic consensus takes Kabbalah literally in it's racist, pantheist teaching that "the Jew" has an extra soul which "is a part of God above" and that the non-"Jew" derives from the "impure kelipot."

This thinking not only pervades rabbinic Judaism, it's also evident in the work of Judaic philosophers such as Rabbi Walter Cardinal Kasper's mentor, Martin Buber and many others.

But one need not plunge the dark depths of rabbinic Judaism and Judaic philosophy in order to identify the racist Judaic component at work. One need only look to the millions of "secular," atheist, communist, etc., "Jews" who've flocked to "Israel" through it's racist "right of return," most of whom will never set foot in a synagogue in their lives.

What other religious population continues to identify themselves with their religion after they've converted to another religion or ideology? How often do you hear people identify themselves as "atheist Catholic"? It's quite commonplace to meet an "atheist Jew," however, especially in the streets of Tel Aviv.

No, the deluded rabbinic concept of "race" is primary to Judaism. It's betrayed by the Judaic embrace of "secular, atheist Jews" and in the annihilation of "the Jews'" percieved genetically programmed foe, "Amalek" currently taking place in the Middle East and in countless other examples of the rotten fruit produced by Judaism.

I realize that your religion permits you to have it both ways, itzchak, but the rules of logic do not.

Michael Mantra said...

I will repost a comment I made in reply to any earlier article
of yours:
Again, the 'Jews', a Turkic tribe
that learned the Talmud from rabbis
in Babylon in the 8th century, and
later became the Russian/Ashkenazi Jews, who have caused so much trouble & chaos for Christendom claim that Jesus & Mary were 'Jews'...more lies from the
descendents of the 'father of lies
& murder'...also, one of your read-
ers Itzchak, brings up a 'scientif-
ic' analysis of DNA types that is
supposed to be a 'proof' that all
'jews' are descendents of a 'similiar' gene pool...this 'study' is used as a
'refutation' of Koestler's book,
'The Thirteenth Tribe' & other
historical studies indicating that
present day 'jews' are actually of
Turkic/Mongolian extraction...from
my limited knowledge of genetics, I
have nor seen evidence that it is possible to establish evidence of
ANY genealogy going back a 1000 years or even further...from a his-
torical perspective, there were no
Jewish communities in Western Europe of the size necessary to produce the Eastern or Ashkenazi
'jews' by means of migration......
........Michael Mantra