Thursday, February 8, 2007

JPII Initiated 'Day of Judaism' for Poland

Poles mark ‘Day of Judaism’

Poles held joint prayer services and workshops on religion’s cultural influence as part of an annual Day of Judaism.

Wednesday was the 10th annual Day of Judaism in Gdansk, overseen by the Polish Catholic Church.

This year, delegates from the Church and the Jewish community in Poland also discussed whether science and religion must necessarily conflict.

Stanislaw Krajewski, the American Jewish Committee’s representative in Warsaw and author of several books on Jewish-Polish relations, told Polish Radio, “This is a significant event by itself because it is perhaps the only national day which is supposed to be observed by all churches all over the country devoted to Judaism.

"I think it shows two things: The universal dimension of the importance of Jews and Jewish religion for the Church, for Christianity in general; and the specific Polish dimension, the importance of Jews in the history of Poland.”

The Day of Judaism was initiated by Polish-born Pope John Paul II.

http://jta.org/page_view_breaking_story.asp?intid=6492

95 comments:

Itzchak said...

Very cool...boy you do good job of keeping up with this news...

rev'd up said...

Stumbled across your site by way of Hoffman II and am passing it along to my friends. Thanks for the research -- it's right on the money.

Itzchak said...

Here's a good site that should be of interest to the intellects here....
http://www.internationaljewishconspiracy.com/

Cambrensis said...

I stumbled across this:

http://www.rabbiyess.com/righteous_application.html

Itzchak said...

Thanks...that's a very interesting site...quite sad actually...that guy was (and probably is)a great musician...the whole story of the Lubavitcher Rebbe being the Messiah even after he died is quite an interesting phenomenon....that has been hugely discredited by the thinking Orthodox world...and it should die out in a few years as a relic of their disappointment.


Or else they're in danger of becoming as out of touch with reality as Catholics are and all who await the 'second coming' of someone who dies...

Itzchak said...

Here's the lowdown on this clown....fortunately we have some sense of discernment, which i have a feeling is sadly lacking in the readership of the drivel on this site.
http://sultanknish.blogspot.com/2006/01/sunday-rabbi-was-fraud.html

Cambrensis said...

Do you believe in a coming Messiah, Itzhak?

Itzchak said...

That's an interesting question...the Zohar says that the overriding theme of the last 2000 years of history will be Messiah. And our dear planet has been certainly engaged in an ongoing battle in which everyone is claiming that their messiah is THE ONE.
This has included 'secular messiah's...marx and so forth.
I'm not sure if we're understanding the various prophetic statements correctly when we read their allusions.
Maimonides certainly 'encourages' us to take it literally:
12. I believe with perfect faith in the coming of the Messiah. How long it takes, I will await His coming every day.
---------------------------
The contemporary rabbi whose teachings my understanding is most informed by taught that the return of the Children of Israel to Israel is a certain indication of the approach of the Messianic Age ('footsteps of the Messiah').
Certainly when the Messianic events occur- world peace and well being--I'll be happy to acknowledge that if a single human being is responsible for that transformation,,then the Messiah has come.
Until then, I'm watching with great interest the unfolding of history.
---------------
Generally I think the focus of waiting for the One to come and do it for us is misguided and quite tragic. A Hassidic rebbe used to teach that we are not allowed to believe in God when someone in need comes to us asking for help.

Itzchak said...

Actually the verses that I think are the most currently relevant (at least to the Children of Israel, and don't forget that the known Children of Israel are only 2/12 of the original 12 tribes; the large number of converts this days seem to indicate the tribes slowly returning) are
Deuteronomy Chapter 30: 1-10.

Cambrensis said...

Of these numerous false messiahs, religious and secular, did not some get a rabbinical or scholarly seal of approval?

If learned Jews could be so wrong about bar Kochba and Schneerson, how do I know they're not wrong about Jesus? 'Trust me, I'm a sage ...'

If a single human being ever seems responsible for a transformation that brings about world peace and wellbeing, I'd be really scared.

Itzchak said...

everybody's fallible here....
akiva admitted bar kochba was a mistake because of the results...
--------
schneerson ..it's just his chassidim (some of them) that are having trouble letting go...
all the 'major' rabbis are in disdain of the whole thing
---------
and don't forget Shabbtai Tzvi--another fascinating phenomenon
-----------------
the only real proof is the results..and that's the clearest proof that jesus-whoever the historical person was, (it's astounding to me that saul/paul never even met him; its seem like this was a religion created by saul after the fact)--was not the messiah...the proof of the messiah is world peace...no world peace, no messiah...
and you can't use the out of 'well he'll do it when he comes back'...
(i mean, you can and you have but it has no validity in the real world)

Itzchak said...

here's a fairly simple statement of why jesus doesn't fit with the Biblical understanding.
Also, the other criteria is Messiah from the House of David...which of course Jesus wasn't..

http://www.conncoll.edu/academics/departments/relstudies/290/judaism/jesus.html

Cambrensis said...

If Jesus was recognised by Joseph as his adopted son would he not legally inherit the throne of David?

Itzchak said...

No, an adopted child does not enter the blood line of his non-biological father.
An adopted child of a Cohein (descendant of Aaronand who can serve as a priest) does not become a Cohein and cannot serve as a Cohein.

Itzchak said...

Here is the Torah/Bible perspective:
"There is no concept AT ALL of adoption in the Torah. A man and woman can adopt a boy moments after his birth (born to a Jew or a Gentile), raise him like a child for 20 years, and he is 100% fully legally permitted to not only marry the couple's biological daughter, but he can even marry his adopted mother. But more to this point, what is discussed in Jewish Law is that if a member of a certain "tribe" (nowadays pertinent only to a Kohain or Levy) takes in a child who is not of a father of the same tribe (a Kohain takes a Levy child in), by law the parents are required to tell the child (once he is of proper age) that he is adopted so as to prevent him from carrying out any of the specialized duties of his father's tribe. A child "adopted" by a Kohain is forbidden, just like any other non-Kohain, from performing any of the Kohain rituals or reciting any of their blessings."
For example, if King David adopted a son, that son would not be considered a descendant of the House of David.

Itzchak said...

And a little more from the sources:

"Judaism, unlike the Christianity, does not believe that the Messiah is Jesus. The noun moshiach (translated as messiah) annotatively means "annointed one;" it does not, however, imply "savior." The notion of an innocent, semi-divine being who will sacrifice himself to save us from the consequences of our own sins is a purely Christian concept that has no basis in Jewish thought or scripture. In Judaic texts, the term messiah was used for all kings, high priests, certain warriors, but never eschatological figures. In the Tanach, moshiach is used 38 times: two patriarchs, six high priests, once for Cyrus, 29 Israelite kings such as Saul and David. Not once is the word moshiach used in reference to the awaited Messiah. Even in the apocalyptic book of Daniel, the only time moshiach is mentioned is in connection to a murdered high priest. The Dead Sea Scrolls, the Pseudepigrapha, and Apocrypha never mention the Messiah.

The man destined to be the Messiah will be a direct descendant of King David (Isaiah 11:1) through the family of Solomon, David's son (1 Chronicles 22:9-l0). He will cause all the world to serve God together (Isaiah 11:2), be wiser than Solomon (Mishnah Torah Repentance 9:2), greater than the patriarchs and prophets (Aggadah Genesis 67), and more honored than kings (Mishnah Sanhedrin 10), for he will reign as king of the world (Pirkei Eliezer).

Amongst the most basic missions that the Messiah will accomplish during his lifetime (Isaiah 42:4) are to:

* Oversee the rebuilding of Jerusalem, including the Third Temple, in the event that it has not yet been rebuilt (Michah 4:1 and Ezekiel 40-45)

* Gather the Jewish people from all over the world and bring them home to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 11:12; 27:12-13)

* Influence every individual of every nation to abandon and be ashamed of their former beliefs (or non-beliefs) and acknowledge and serve only the One True God of Israel (Isaiah 11:9-10; 40:5 and Zephaniah 3:9)

* Bring about global peace throughout the world (Isaiah 2:4; 11:5-9 and Michah 4:3-4).

There are over a dozen additional prophecies which the Messiah will also achieve (there is no mention of any “second coming” in the Tanach or the New Testament). In order to avoid identifying the wrong individual as Messiah, the Code of Jewish Law dictates criteria for establishing the Messiah's identity (Mishnah Torah Kings 11:4):

"If a king arises from the House of David who meditates on the Torah, occupies himself with the commandments as did his ancestor King David, observes the commandments of the Written and Oral Law, prevails upon all Israel to walk in the way of the Torah and to follow its direction, and fights the wars of God, it may be assumed that he is the Messiah.

If he does these things and is fully successful, rebuilds the Third Temple on its location, and gathers the exiled Jews, he is beyond doubt the Messiah. But if he is not fully successful, or if he is killed, he is not the Messiah."

Cambrensis said...

" ...an adopted child does not enter the blood line of his non-biological father ... For example, if King David adopted a son, that son would not be considered a descendant of the House of David...."

But if the child's natural father was the Deity wouldn't it be impertinent to insist on this point?

You gonna tell God His son isn't good enough for your family?

Itzchak said...

It's not a question of good enough..
It's a different category...

Itzchak said...

"If Jesus was recognised by Joseph as his adopted son would he not legally inherit the throne of David?"
---------------
The answer here is clear that it's no.
-----------------------
"But if the child's natural father was the Deity wouldn't it be impertinent to insist on this point?"
This is of course where the whole discussion breaks down into mythology and irrationality.

-------
There is a fascinating Talmudic discussion about the status of a certain type of oven which relates...I'll send it shortly...

Itzchak said...

Here it is...this is from
Babylonian Talmud, Baba Mezia, Folio 59a.b,
-------------------------
We learnt elsewhere: If he cut it into separate tiles, placing sand between each tile: R. Eliezer declared it clean, and the Sages declared it unclean; and this was the oven of 'Aknai. Why [the oven] of 'Aknai? – Said Rab Judah in Samuel's name: [It means] that they encompassed it with arguments as a snake, and proved it unclean. It has been taught: On that day R. Eliezer brought forward every imaginable argument, but they did not accept them. Said he to them: ›If the halachah [law] agrees with me, let this carob-tree prove it!‹ Thereupon the carob-tree was torn a hundred cubits out of its place – others affirm, four hundred cubits. ›No proof can be brought from a carob-tree‹, they retorted. Again he said to them: ›If the halachah agrees with me, let the stream of water prove it!‹ Whereupon the stream of water flowed backwards. ›No proof can be brought from a stream of water‹, they rejoined. Again he urged: ›If the halachah agrees with me, let the walls of the schoolhouse prove it‹, whereupon the walls inclined to fall. But R. Joshua rebuked them, saying: ›When scholars are engaged in a halachic dispute, what have ye to interfere?‹ Hence they did not fall, in honour of R. Joshua, nor did they resume the upright, in honour of R. Eliezer; and they are still standing thus inclined. Again he said to them: ›If the halachah agrees with me, let it be proved from Heaven!‹ Whereupon a Heavenly Voice cried out: ›Why do ye dispute with R. Eliezer, seeing that in all matters the halachah agrees with him!‹ But R. Joshua arose and exclaimed: ›It is not in heaven.‹ What did he mean by this? – Said R. Jeremiah: That the Torah had already been given at Mount Sinai; we pay no attention to a Heavenly Voice, because Thou hast long since written in the Torah at Mount Sinai, "After the majority must one incline". R. Nathan met Elijah and asked him: What did the Holy One, Blessed be He, do in that hour? – He laughed [with joy], he replied, saying, ›My sons have defeated Me, My sons have defeated Me.‹

Cambrensis said...

An entertaining fable, Itzchak.

But maybe God decided to teach the impertinent sages a lesson anyway:

>>It was said: On that day all objects which R. Eliezer had declared clean were brought and burnt in fire. Then they took a vote and excommunicated him. Said they, 'Who shall go and inform him?' 'I will go,' answered R. Akiba, 'lest an unsuitable person go and inform him, and thus destroy the whole world.' What did R. Akiba do? He donned black garments and wrapped himself in black, and sat at a distance of four cubits from him. 'Akiba,' said R. Eliezer to him, 'what has particularly happened to-day?' 'Master,' he replied, 'it appears to me that thy companions hold aloof from thee.' Thereupon he too rent his garments, put off his shoes, removed [his seat] and sat on the earth, whilst tears streamed from his eyes. The world was then smitten: a third of the olive crop, a third of the wheat, and a third of the barley crop. Some say, the dough in women's hands swelled up.
A Tanna taught: Great was the calamity that befell that day, for everything at which R. Eliezer cast his eyes was burned up. R. Gamaliel too was travelling in a ship, when a huge wave arose to drown him. 'It appears to me,' he reflected, 'that this is on account of none other but R. Eliezer b. Hyrcanus.' <<

Itzchak said...

The punishment was not for the 'impertinence' of maintaining that Halacha is determined by the human majority and Divine Intervention is not considered valid as a 'decider'.
(even if the natural order is turned upside down, and I'm glad you recognize this is a fable, as is the thought that the Divine impregnates virgins (or non-virgins for that matter).
The punishment was for excommunicating the minority opinion. Monolithic thought is not recommended. That's why the Talmud always records the dissenting opinions.

Cambrensis said...

This is taken from what looks like a reasonably mainstream Jewish site (as far as I can tell):

http://bible.ort.org/books/pentd2.asp?ACTION=displaypage&BOOK=1&CHAPTER=6

I'd be interested to know much of this you would regard as myth or fable. It seems to lean toward the interpretation of fallen angels impregnating human females. (This is not, I gather, the normative Catholic interpretation of this passage - although the possibility of human congress with evil spirits is acknowledged in Catholic tradition, such unions are not thought to be capable of generating new life [see eg Malleus Maleficarum I:3].)

The plain fact is there is a great deal in the Old Testament which most modern men would regard as 'mythology and irrationality', not least the creation of Adam and Eve.

I guess it would also appear to a disinterested observer that the Old Testament does not hold that a human majority outranks Divine Intervention, which can certainly turn the natural order upside down. Again, when it comes to monolithic thought and minority opinions the Old Testament seems to take a most unTalmudic stance.

Itzchak said...

I'm not sure what you are directing my attention to in the link.
What I get when I click it is the six days of creation. Is that what you're asking me about vis a vis myth or fable?

Cambrensis said...

I think you're just clicking-

http://bible.ort.org/books/pentd2.asp?

The full link is-

http://bible.ort.org/books/pentd2.asp?ACTION=displaypage&BOOK=1&CHAPTER=6

It's the account of the nephilim.

Itzchak said...

We could review all the theories of what the nephilim refers to...I don't think we really know with any certainty.
We didn't create a religion based on it.

Cambrensis said...

Well, I wasn't suggesting it was analagous to the Incarnation & Virgin Birth - just that Judaism would seem to accept the possibility of human females being impregnated by angels - which strikes me as being far more irrational than those Christian dogmas.

Itzchak said...

It's hard to compare irrational dogmas...
Irrational is irrational...
The nephilim don't have any particular place in Jewish theology..
We don't 'believe' in it and don't have to believe anything about it...
For example, "Yet, even accepting the supposed derivation of Nephilim from the verb meaning "to fall," it was not necessary to explain the origin of the name in such a way. The Targum of Onkelos acts much more wisely by understanding the Nephilim to have been so called because they were men who used to fall violently on the helpless and oppress them. Hence this Targum translates the word by one which means "violent men" or oppressors 1.

Itzchak said...

Mr. Cambrensis:
You seem fairly reasonable...Please understand that I don't really care what other people believe or don't believe. They can believe that swallowing blue pennies is the prerequisite for redemption and that's fine. As long as they don't go around forcing others to swallow blue pennies.
What I don't understand is how intelligent people are still so obssessed with attacking rabbis and thinking that there's some ridiculous rabbinic/Jewish conspiracy to attack the church.
Out of curiosity, I looked at the book by the original Maurice Pinay.
As a card carrying member of the 'Synagogue Of Satan', it didn't seem too different from Mein Kampf, the Protocols of Zion and other evil garbage of that ilk.

Cambrensis said...

Pennies from heaven . . .

Cambrensis said...

It's kind of you to say I seem 'fairly reasonable', Itzchak - no-one's ever called me that before!

I take your point about rationality, I was really just trying to understand your criteria for judging whether something is rational or not.

Sadly discussions on Judaism & Christianity always seem to generate more heat than light. You and Maurice are at least agreed on their essential incompatibility.

You and he also seem to agree that the Jews are in the ascendent - as a sign of the dawning messianic age, or the herald of the antichrist. I suspect the signs of Jewish power in the world today are a paper tiger hiding a terrible vulnerability that will soon be cruelly exposed. Someone once remarked of the State of Israel that the nation of the Jews is fast becoming the Jew of the nations.

It does seem clear that if Christianity hadn't been such a zealous proselytising religion (ie, if the Catholic Church hadn't been such a zealous proselytising institution) much of the world would never have heard of the God of Israel or the Ten Commandments and would presumably still be practising idol-worship and human sacrifice. As the secular power of the Catholic Church wanes those abominations are coming back with a vengeance, along with a resurgent Islam. I can't see that being 'good for the Jews'. If there was/is a Jewish conspiracy against Christianity it seems to have backfired horribly. I guess time will tell. Tzipisa l'Yeshua . . .

Itzchak said...

"If there was/is a Jewish conspiracy against Christianity it seems to have backfired horribly. "

Do you think there is one?

Cambrensis said...

I dunno but I know a good Jewish joke:

Goldberg and Levy are strolling down the street one day when they pass a Roman Catholic Church. A big sign outside says: - ‘SPECIAL OFFER - CONVERT TO CATHOLICISM TODAY AND GET $100!’

Goldberg stops and stares at the sign.
Levy turns to him and says, “What’s going on?”

Goldberg answers, “I’m thinking of doing it.”

Shocked, Levy says, “Are you crazy? If that's a joke it's in very poor taste!”

Goldberg thinks for a minute and says, “I’m going to do it.”

Levy bursts out, "That's despicable! How can you forget 2,000 years of persecution just like that? What about the Crusades? What about the Inquisition?"

"Relax," says Goldberg. "I'm not *really* going to convert. I'm just going to pretend so I can get the money. Wait here, I'll be back in half an hour."

With that, Goldberg marches determinedly into the church.

The minutes tick by. Levy becomes more and more agitated. Eventually, after three quarters of an hour, Goldberg emerges from the church.

Unable to contain himself, Levy grabs his friend and shakes him furiously. "Well? What happened? Did you get the money or not?!”

Goldberg looks at him with a disapproving frown and says, “What is it with you people - can't you think of anything but money?”

Cambrensis said...

At the risk of seeming shamefully equivocal I would say it all depends what you mean by 'conspiracy'. And 'Jewish'.

The psychological and spiritual dangers of indulging in obsessive conspiracy-theorizing are too obvious to require comment. Having said that, I think it's equally irrational to dismiss all conspiracy theories a priori. No-one disputes there was a conspiracy to assassinate Julius Caesar - so why not JFK? If a group of disgruntled Catholics could plot to blow up the Houses of Parliament, why is it so very implausible that a network of Freemasons should conspire to bring down the French monarchy?

There's no shortage of psychological and sociological attempts to explain the current popularity of conspiracy theories. However plausible some of these explanations may be, I'm sure the real reason is simply that many people intuitively sense that the cultural condition commonly known as 'modernity' is truly, deeply evil. And when one peers into history the growth of this evil seems eerily inevitable, with what at first appear to be apparently contradictory tendencies ultimately abetting and reinforcing each other to produce the evil outcome. The feeling of 'intelligent design' is too strong to ignore.

And yet -- the fundamental problem with much of what passes under the name 'conspiracy theory' nowadays is succinctly expressed by the Catholic writer Solange Hertz in her book 'Utopia'. After ridiculing the "familiar scenario of sinister bushy-browed characters with high IQs and aquiline noses, hunched around a table in the dark of night ... masterminding a world takeover", she points out that "an operation manifesting the cosmic intensity, historical continuity, extension, coordination and intelligence of the one deploying in our day defies human explanation."

It's easy to mock David Icke's theory that giant shape-shifting alien lizards are directing world affairs, but to his credit he's grasped the crucial point that only a *superhuman* intelligence can account for this 'intelligent design'. Being a thoroughly modern man he tries to express this insight in terms borrowed from science fiction.

From a Christian perspective the culprits are obviously what St Paul identified as the Cosmocrats of the Dark Aeon - demonic intelligences manipulating unsuspecting human beings and occasionally cooperating with perverted human beings.

That's my take on conspiracy.

Itzchak said...

That's interesting that we're having this 'conversation' because that's one of my favorite jokes...i've been telling it since i first heard it in the 80's..
-----------------
so what's your take on the Maurice Pinay book and the material on this blog..?

Itzchak said...

"demonic intelligences manipulating unsuspecting human beings and occasionally cooperating with perverted human beings."
-----------
we humans are puppets?

Itzchak said...

Man...you would enjoy the study of Kabbalah...it's much more life affirming...
---------
Do you think the 'evil' of modernity is worse than the 'evil' in the middle ages and throught out history...?

Cambrensis said...

>>we humans are puppets?<<

No more so than people living under a tyrant - some support him, some give in to him (with varying degrees of culpability according to circumstances), others resist him with varying degrees of heroism. No loss of free will or moral responsibility involved.

>>Kabbalah...it's much more life affirming...<<

Than Christianity? How so?

>>Do you think the 'evil' of modernity is worse than the 'evil' in the middle ages and throught out history...?<<

Very much so, there was no industrial-scale abortion in the Middle Ages for instance. There was no 'right' to practise Satanism openly, any more than in ancient Israel.

Cambrensis said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Cambrensis said...

The moderns want to break free from God, from ignorance, superstition, theocracy, intolerance, closed hierarchical societies - but what do the typically modern belief-systems proclaim? That men are slaves to some pernicious abstraction - history, class, the economy, the nation, the race, the unconscious, biological processes, linguistic structures, pseudo-oriental mysticisms whch proclaim selfhood an illusion. I don't doubt the medieval peasant had a hard lot, like most people throughout history, but he at least he was a free man before God, not a hairless ape with a mutated cranium.

Just a few decades after Nietzsche announced the death of God, his disciple Foucault declared:

"Man is an invention of recent date. And one perhaps nearing its end. If those arrangements were to disappear, if some event of which we can at the moment do no more than sense the possibility ... were to cause them to crumble .. then one can certainly wager that man would be erased, like a face drawn in sand at the edge of the sea."

So much for the imago Dei. From this:

http://keptar.demasz.hu/arthp/
art/l/lochner/madonna.jpg

- to this:

http://www.motinternational.org/images/
Jake%20and%20Dinos%20Chapman%20
War%202004%20xvga%201.jpg


And it all started with such promise ...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/
en/8/8e/ENC_1-NA5_600px.jpeg

Itzchak said...

"(ie, if the Catholic Church hadn't been such a zealous proselytising institution) much of the world would never have heard of the God of Israel or the Ten Commandments and would presumably still be practising idol-worship and human sacrifice. As the secular power of the Catholic Church wanes those abominations are coming back with a vengeance, along with a resurgent Islam."
The filter of the Catholic Church distorted the God of Israel and replaced it with an idolatrous obsession with some Jewish guy.
While the teaching of the God of Israel is focused in on the redemption and the power of good, the RC version focused on the uselessness of human action as compared to the power of belief.

Cambrensis said...

"... the RC version focused on the uselessness of human action as compared to the power of belief."

Sounds more like Lutheranism or Calvinism to me.

If RCs believed that human action was useless they would hardly have sent missionaries to every corner of the Earth or gone on crusade. Google 'seven corporal works of mercy' and ask yourself why the British ambulance service is known to this day as the St John Ambulance Brigade with a Maltese Cross as its logo. Come to think of it, I wonder why until fairly recently nurses in Britain used to be called 'Sister' ...

--Incidentally, I recently came across an interesting little book called El Libro de los Acuerdos, a record of the financial dealings of London's Sephardic synagogue in the 17th century. Among the items recorded in the accounts is payment for a 'correa do malikutt', described as a 'flagellation-thong used for mortification on Eve of Kipur'. Oy vey!

"...so what's your take on the Maurice Pinay book...?"

Haven't read it and to be honest it looks pretty tough going. Maybe it's full of Jew-hatred, I don't know. If someone believes that Synagogue & Church have been at war since the beginning, does that make them a Jew-hater?

Itzchak said...

Isn't a foundational belief of RC that the way to redemption is belief in jesus...? And if you're a good person who does not or thinks it's silly, you're condemned to hell?
------------------
"If someone believes that Synagogue & Church have been at war since the beginning, does that make them a Jew-hater?"
It certainly seems that way by the material in this blog...
--------
Also church has been at war with synagogue; synagogue has not been at war with church. All 'we' ever wanted was to be left alone. We have no theology that christians are bad or should be converted.
(Of course the early church laws against Jews offering conversion at the pain of death helped cement that).
------
There is a not widely done custom of having someone inflict 39 (or less) lashes as preparation for Yom Kippur.What brings you to read such obscure books?

Itzchak said...

"If RCs believed that human action was useless they would hardly have sent missionaries to every corner of the Earth or gone on crusade"

Was them primary motivation not to convince people to believe in JC(that Jewish guy)?

Itzchak said...

Here is the index of the online copy of Maurice Pinay's book...
It's completely full of all of the classic anti-Semitism..
----------------------
Part 1: The Secret Driving Force of Communism

1. Communism as Destroyer
2. The Creators of the System
3. The Head of Communism
4. The Financiers of Communism
5. Jewish Testimony
Part 2: The Power Concealed Behind Freemasonry
1. Freemasonry, enemy of the Church and Christianity
2. The Jews as founders of Freemasonry
3. The Jews as the leaders of the Freemasons
4. Crimes of Freemasonry
5. Freemasonry as spreader of the Jacobin revolutions
6. Freemasonry favours and spreads Communism
Part 3: The Synagogue
of Satan
1. Jewish striving for power
2. More concerning the Jewish religion
3. Curses of God against the Jews
4. Massacres of Jews ordered by God (Bible)
5. Antisemitism and Christianity
6. Christ, the symbol of Anti-semitism, so the Jews assert
7. The Deicide People
8. The Apostles condemn the Jews for murdering Christ
9. Morality of struggle and not deadly defeatism
10. The Jews kill Christians and persecute the Apostles
11. The Roman persecutions were caused by the Jews
Part 4: The Jewish Fifth Column in the Clergy
1. The Octopus strangling Christianity
2. The origin of the Fifth Column
3. The Fifth Column in action

4. Jewry, the Father of the Gnostics
5. The Jew Arius and his heresy
6. The Jews as allies of Julian the Apostate
7. St John Chrysostom & St Ambrose condemn the Jews
8. Saint Cyril conquers Nestor and expels the Jews
9. The barbarian invasion, a triumph of the Arian Jews
10. Catholic victory
11. Toledo Council 3 pulls Jews from public office
12. Toledo Council 4 ex-communicates judaeophiles
13. Negligence in struggle against clandestine Jewry
14. The Church combats secret Jewry

15. It is necessary to destroy the Jewish fifth column

16. Jewish conspiracies punished with slavery

17. Christian-Jewish recon-ciliation. Prelude to collapse

18. The Jews betray their most loyal friends

19. The Church Councils fight Jewry

20. Attempt to subject Holy Roman Empire to the Jews

21. The Council of Meaux combats the Jews

Cambrensis said...

>>Isn't a foundational belief of RC that the way to redemption is belief in jesus...? And if you're a good person who does not or thinks it's silly, you're condemned to hell?<<

Belief is necessary, yes, but belief by itself is insufficient. "So faith also, if it have not works, is dead in itself ... the devils also believe and tremble".

So not all Catholics will get to Heaven - it's not some kind of free pass for impenitent sinners. Wicked Catholics go to Hell. Medieval depictions of the Judgement Day often show bishops, cardinals & popes being hauled off to the pit - and no doubt to a deeper pit than non-Christians:

"That servant who *knew* the will of his lord, and prepared not himself, and did not according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that *knew not*, and did things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. And unto whomsoever much is given, of him much shall be required."

As for whether *all* non-Catholics go to Hell, even good ones ... my extremely limited understanding is that there is at the very least a solid Catholic tradition that this is the case. Only God knows who's been really good and as Kafka said, before God one is always in the wrong ... It's also worth remembering that Hell has different 'abodes', presumably ranging from the most horrendous torture to mere hollow emptiness & desolation!

Cambrensis said...

>>Also church has been at war with synagogue; synagogue has not been at war with church. All 'we' ever wanted was to be left alone.<<

How did the Church's first martyr St Stephen die?
What was Saul up to before he saw the light?
What happened to those Christians who refused to support the false messiah Bar Kochba?
Did many Jews distinguished themselves by sheltering Christians from their Roman persecutors? (I honestly don't know the answer to that last one - I'd be fascinated to know if there's any historical account of Jewish responses to Roman persecution of Christians.)

Two sides to every story.

>>There is a not widely done custom of having someone inflict 39 (or less) lashes as preparation for Yom Kippur.What brings you to read such obscure books?<<

Because it's interesting, and it shows that 'life-affirming' Judaism has found room for ascetic practices (and why not?) . . .

Cambrensis said...

>>Was them primary motivation not to convince people to believe in JC(that Jewish guy)?<<

Well the Crusades weren't about converting anyone - they were a series of defensive counter-strikes against the Islamic steamroller.

Cambrensis said...

>>Here is the index of the online copy of Maurice Pinay's book...
It's completely full of all of the classic anti-Semitism..<<

Catholics often defend themselves against charges of anti-semitism by distinguishing between 'anti-semitism' (=opposition to the Jews on grounds of race) and 'anti-Judaism' (=religious opposition).

This distinction, like that between anti-semitism and anti-Zionism, is reasonable as far as it goes but fails to address the issue of *fanatical Jew-hatred* which cuts across all these categories.

I have read a small number of Catholic commentators whose remarks on the Jews are by no stretch of the imagination 'racist' (ie 'anti-semitic') yet nonethless suggest Jew-hatred by an extreme stridency of tone which seems to go beyond the bounds of reason and charity.

Conversely (and strange as it may seem) there are writers out there who are anti-semitic (believing that race is the decisive factor), yet whose apparent lack of rancour and repudiation of violence suggest they are not fanatical Jew-haters. The pagan 'Traditionalist' writer Alexander Dugin comes to mind.

I can't comment on 'The Plot Against the Church' because I haven't read it. It's hard to judge from the chapter-headings alone - there could be seething Jew-hatred there or merely a grim determination to resist what is seen as a powerful and hostile influence. You, Itzchak, have implied that such hostility is a figment of paranoid Christian imaginations. I am not completely convinced of that, much as I would like to be. Allegations of disproportionate Jewish representation among the ideologues & leaders of Soviet Communism, for instance, are commonplace. These are either false or true. If true, it's hardly surprising that they provoke reactions which mirror your earlier linking of Christianity with Nazism.

http://www.artukraine.com/postcards/icons/sl_beria.jpg

One last thing. The belief that ethnic origins, Jewish or otherwise, have a decisive, ineradicable negative impact upon a person's character & morality is clearly unacceptable for a religion which teaches the unity of the human race in Adam, which worships Yeshua and venerates Miryam. And any sort of fanatical hatred is unacceptable for a religion which preaches the subordination of the passions to reason and the love of enemies.

And yet I can't help feeling that the anti-semites and Jew-haters, deplorable though they are, have dimly perceived a truth unrecognised or denied by secular and religious liberals - that the Jews are in some mysterious way different, unassimilable and often seemingly antagonistic. How one chooses to explain that awkward, uncomfortable fact will surely go a long way to determining how one decides to react to it.

Itzchak said...

So I'm going to hell (for example)?

Itzchak said...

Fortunately, our tradition teaches that on the Sabbath, even those in hell (even though we don't really believe in hell) are released...
Your comments move me to respond, but it'll have to wait...
So, Shabbat Shalom...

Itzchak said...

"Allegations of disproportionate Jewish representation among the ideologues & leaders of Soviet Communism, for instance, are commonplace. These are either false or true. If true, it's hardly surprising that they provoke reactions which mirror your earlier linking of Christianity with Nazism."
----------
The fact that Jews were disproportionately represented among the leaders of Judaism is not very compelling. This does not mean that there was a Jewish conpsiracy of any sort, they were acting out of their own individual reasons and context.
Jews are disproportionately represented in many areas including science, entertainment (I noticed so few christmas lights in Beverly Hills this past xmas...)philosophy, Buddhism, Wall St, etc., etc.

The obsession with Jews is not linked to any one area or reason.

Itzchak said...

oops...obviously I meant 'leaders of communism'...

Cambrensis said...

<< The fact that Jews were disproportionately represented among the leaders of [Communism] is not very compelling. This does not mean that there was a Jewish conpsiracy of any sort, they were acting out of their own individual reasons and context.>>

I don't believe it's evidence of a conscious conspiracy but *perhaps* it lends credibility to the notion that many Jews, secular or observant, have a visceral aversion to Christian civilization and will often instinctively align themselves with any movement or trend that undermines that civilization, eg science, entertainment, philosophy, Buddhism, Wall St, etc ...

Whenever I've browsed orthodox Jewish websites or online discussion forums I've been struck by the hierarchy of Enemies - neo-Nazism isn't even a blip on the radar, militant Islam is just an annoying gnat, but "Xtians" - oh boy ...

Itzchak said...

"visceral aversion to Christian civilization" is probably true...
It comes out of our collective experience in the bosom of Christian 'civilization'....
----------------
"eg science, entertainment, philosophy, Buddhism, Wall St, etc"

are all these (and more)threats to xtian civilization?

Itzchak said...

>>Also church has been at war with synagogue; synagogue has not been at war with church. All 'we' ever wanted was to be left alone.<<

"How did the Church's first martyr St Stephen die?
What was Saul up to before he saw the light?
What happened to those Christians who refused to support the false messiah Bar Kochba?"

These examples don't illustrate a two thousand year orchestrated secretive campaign by the synagogue to destroy/harm the church.

Cambrensis said...

>>"eg science, entertainment, philosophy, Buddhism, Wall St, etc"

are all these (and more)threats to xtian civilization?<<

To clarify, by "science & entertainment" I mean what passes for them today.

Cambrensis said...

>>"visceral aversion to Christian civilization" is probably true...
It comes out of our collective experience in the bosom of Christian 'civilization'....<<

Everyone has collective experiences, Itzchak.

This is worth reading:

http://iupjournals.org/jss/jss4-2.html

Cambrensis said...

>>These examples don't illustrate a two thousand year orchestrated secretive campaign by the synagogue to destroy/harm the church.<<

Of course not, but they do suggest an enduring enmity which predates the period of Christian hegemony.

Does this excuse later mistreatment of Jews by Christians? No, but it does illustrate that the image of the Jew as always and everywhere the powerless victim of Christian savagery is a distorted one.

Itzchak said...

That is a very interesting article.
It's interesting and not surprising that it's when we were/are in Israel that we were/are most powerful.
As someone who served in the Israeli army, I can testify that the period of powerlessness is over.
------------
As a child of Holocaust survivors, I am most aware of the experience in Christian Europe...

Cambrensis said...

"It's interesting and not surprising that it's when we were/are in Israel that we were/are most powerful."

And yet God once permitted the Gentiles (Romans) to defeat you and scatter you from your ancient land. Why?

"As someone who served in the Israeli army, I can testify that the period of powerlessness is over."

And what will you do with your newfound power?

If the Jews' return to the Holy Land is indeed part of God's plan then clearly you have nothing to fear from Muslims or any other enemy. But if the State of Israel were set up in defiance of God's plan then no amount of military might will avert His displeasure.

"As a child of Holocaust survivors, I am most aware of the experience in Christian Europe... "

I would question whether Europe by that time was anything more than nominally Christian.

+++

In an earlier post you said you expected the Holy Temple to function once again. Will that restoration (animal sacrifice?) be the work of the messiah?

Itzchak said...

"And yet God once permitted the Gentiles (Romans) to defeat you and scatter you from your ancient land. Why?"
The tradition (as recorded in the Talmud) was that the first temple was destroyed because of the sins of idolatry, sexual immorality and murder. The second temple was destroyed because of the sin of 'sinat chinam-needless hatred within the community'.
-------------------------
"And what will you do with your newfound power?"
That's the challenge that Israel is dealing with...First there was the challenge of acquiring the power to defend effectively...until a little while ago 22 of the surrounding countries were officialy at war with Israel...Most have given up...
though the war continues and Israel is struggling with the challenge of power. It is interesting to note that the main watchdogs highlighting any misuses of power are Israeli human rights groups-Betzelem, and others...
There is a very vigorous debate going on in Israel about the use/misuse of power.
----------
The Zohar explains that the Children of Ishmael will find it very hard to accept the return of the Children of Jacob/Israel and will bring the world to war against Jerusalem to try to prevent this.
'It will be a time of constriction for Jacob, but the Holy One will bring redemption'...is the quote.
---
This is in the context of a discussion in which the angel of Ishmael complains to the Creator about the children of Itzchak receiving the land as part of the covenant...'After all, we circumcise our children as well'..
The ultimate response in the discussion is that as their circumcision is 'empty' -it's not the circumcision of the covenant, not done properly, etc..they will have the land when it is empty...and then the children of Jacob will return and there will be a process of war...basically what is happening now...The children of Ishmael are certainly finding it difficult to accept the reality of the return...
Of course Biblically, Ishmael is the progenitor of 12 kingdoms anyways and certainly does not lack in any way.There's enough for everybody.
--------------------
"I would question whether Europe by that time was anything more than nominally Christian."
I think it's fairly clear (and has been widely discussed) that the Holocaust would not have been possible without the ground being prepared by Christianity's demonization of the Jew.
The one person who could have stood up to Hitler and influenced the masses was the Pope and of course he was silent (or worse) and probably saw this as just punishment for the Jews.

The fact that Christianity did not stand up against this massive evil is significant and disturbing.
-----------------------
"In an earlier post you said you expected the Holy Temple to function once again. Will that restoration (animal sacrifice?) be the work of the messiah?"
I'd have to do some more research to see if the tradition has a definitive answer to that...I somehow doubt it...
Since the late 1800's there have been circles of Cohanim-descendants of Aaron who have been studying diligently the sections of Talmud dealing with the logistics of the Temple in preparation. Apparently the red heifer is now being bred-(the lack of the red heifer purification was the major obstacle for not going on to the Temple Mount.)
------------
Rabbi Abraham Isaac HaCohen Kook-(1865-1935)the chief sage of our epoch taught that the 3rd Temple would not have animal sacrifices, these would be replaced by flour offerings...

Itzchak said...

The Future World

In the writings of the Kabbalists, we find a remarkable description of how the universe will look in the future — a world vastly changed from our current reality. All aspects of the universe will be elevated. Even the animals in that future era will be different; they will advance to the level of people nowadays [Sha’ar Hamitzvot of the Ari z"l]. Obviously, no sacrifice could be offered from such humanlike animals. At that time, there will no longer be strife and conflict between the species. Human beings will no longer need to take the lives of animals for their physical, moral, and spiritual needs.

It is about this distant time that the Midrash makes the startling prediction, "All sacrifices will be annulled in the future" [Tanchuma Emor 19, Vayikra Rabbah 9:7]. The prophet Malachi similarly foretold of a lofty world in which the Temple service will only consist of grain offerings, in place of the animal sacrifices of old:

"Then the grain-offering of Judah and Jerusalem will be pleasing to God as in the days of old and as in former years." [Malachi 3:4]

Itzchak said...

"It will be a time of constriction for Jacob, but the Holy One will bring redemption'...is the quote."

I realized how you might hear the word redemption (oops)..in Hebrew -
-YHVH Yivashea (oh man, how your read that...) --'YHVH will get you through it...'will save your skin and soul..
--but not that sort of save, will make sure you don't lose, and you'll return whole...and then the 12 tribes reunite...and the joke will be that by now everybody on the planet is part of the 12 tribes..
sometimes i think the obsession with jews that so many non jews have (I'm amazed sometimes how much anti-Semites know about Judaism....they study it more than many Jews...
(though historically there are more Jews studying Torah seriously now than ever before in our history...and the number continues to grow)..
they (including you perhaps) may be remnants of the 10 tribes still warring perhaps with the other 2..
--
though unfortunately, the central understanding (I say hesitantly) is that all that hatred that finds expression either through anti-Semitism to the point of nazism, anti-zionism , and all the other genteel and non genteel attitudes of negativity towards the two remaining tribes of Israel is manifestations of Amalek continuing in various guises throughout history...
The verses describing the encounter with Amalek are worthy of close study.

Itzchak said...

Just to continue another central point. Our reading of history traces the European civilization through the Idumeans (Edom-)-Rome-and lo and behold the seat of xtianity--back to Esau.
who is the twin brother of Jacob/Israel...Esau was/is a Jew..son of a Jewish mother
meaning....what conclusion do you think I draw from that?

Cambrensis said...

"....what conclusion do you think I draw from that?"

I remember seeing an interview with Jackie Mason in which he said that everyone was a Jew but some people were ashamed to admit it. LOL


+++

Cambrensis said...

On the subject of the abomination of desolation & the Antichrist ...

http://home.earthlink.net/~tonybadillo/

Itzchak said...

that site is about the temple...???

Cambrensis said...

Rabbi Kook on the Balfour Declaration:

"I have come not only to thank the British nation, but to congratulate it for being privileged to make this declaration. The Jewish people is the 'scholar' among the nations, the people of the book, a nation of prophets; and it is a great honor for any nation to aid it. I bless the British nation for having extended such honorable aid to the people of the Torah, to return to its land and assist it in renewing its homeland."

Much good has the Rav's blessing done the 'British nation'. Never trust a vegetarian ...

Itzchak said...

We don't know what it would have been like without the blessing...
Considering how ridiculous/corrupt/sick the whole monarchy/hieararchy is...

Cambrensis said...

(Itzchak, please forgive the bitterness expressed by my last post. Mea culpa, mea maxima culpa ...)


>>I think it's fairly clear (and has been widely discussed) that the Holocaust would not have been possible without the ground being prepared by Christianity's demonization of the Jew.<<

Pagan civilization needed no Christianity to hate the Jews. It was the heathen Romans who destroyed Jerusalem. Christianity held the fury of the Gentiles in check - to the extent that many pagan militants today view the Christian religion as a Jewish plot to weaken them. (You must know 'Xtian' is an insult favoured by modern pagans of the satanist variety.)

>>The ... Pope ... probably saw this as just punishment for the Jews.<<

Like the Romans' destruction of Jerusalem?

Cambrensis said...

>>In the writings of the Kabbalists, we find a remarkable description of how the universe will look in the future — a world vastly changed from our current reality. All aspects of the universe will be elevated.<<

Sounds reasonable. "Behold, I make all things new."

>>Even the animals in that future era will be different; they will advance to the level of people nowadays ...<<

Sounds like weird quasi-pagan mythology ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lawgiver_(Planet_of_the_Apes)

Cambrensis said...

>>Considering how ridiculous/corrupt/sick the whole monarchy/hieararchy is...<<

Er, wasn't it the corrupt British elite that submitted to the rule of the Jew Disraeli and later gave its imprimatur to the Zionist movement?

Is this how the 'God of the Jews' rewards his allies?

Strange too, come to think of it, that all the recent calamities that have befallen the Catholic Church should have occurred precisely at the moment when its leaders publicly repudiated their centuries-old 'antisemitism' and begged forgiveness for it.

It's as if Pharaoh had relented and willingly freed the Israelites, only for God to smite the Egyptians with a further plague.

Itzchak said...

What bitterness?...I missed it...
------------
(You must know 'Xtian' is an insult favoured by modern pagans of the satanist variety.)
I didn't actually know that...I just saw it used sometimes and thought it was an easy abbreviation.
----------------------
"Pagan civilization needed no Christianity to hate the Jews. It was the heathen Romans who destroyed Jerusalem. Christianity held the fury of the Gentiles in check."
This I think ignores/denies the reality of the intense and ongoing anti-Semitism of the Church. I've read books containing papal and other church leaders writings extremely hateful.
-----------------
We certainly brought on the roman destruction...The power struggles among the hasmoneans invited in the romans to help one of the sides....
-------------------

The British Monarchy had little if nothing to do with the Balfour Declaration...It was a parliamentary process..
-----
And that is what happened to the Egyptians after they 'let' Israelites go, though it was certainly not done willingly...
and then they changed their mind and were drowned...
---------------------
Sounds like weird quasi-pagan mythology --Actually the Midrash teaches that in the Garden we were able to speak with the animals..
and King Solomon knew the animals languages, we're told...
so it's perhaps a way of describing the reality of the return to the garden experience...
--------------
"all the recent calamities that have befallen the Catholic Church should have occurred precisely at the moment when its leaders publicly repudiated their centuries-old 'antisemitism' and begged forgiveness for it."
I'm assuming you're talking about Vatican 2...which calamities are you referring to?
You don't think the church had centuries old antisemitism?

Itzchak said...

"God implanted "racism" into the hearts of men, SO THEY WOULD NOT COOPERATE WITH each other! That is the way the world has been set up."

This is from another blog entry here...a more current one...but I'm astounded and trying to get a reality check....Is this a basic belief of traditional chatolicism?

Itzchak said...

Hey Mr. Cambrensis...have you disappeared...?

Cambrensis said...

Still here, Itzchak, but what's with the "Mr"? No need to stand on formality ...

>>"God implanted "racism" into the hearts of men, SO THEY WOULD NOT COOPERATE WITH each other! That is the way the world has been set up."

This is from another blog entry here...a more current one...but I'm astounded and trying to get a reality check.<<


In that discussion, you quoted a Jewish sage who said: "The deep impulse to improve/perfect the world is the Divine Presence within us."

I would say one needs to put a great chasm between "improve" and "perfect" rather than yoke those two concepts together. Acts of charity and heroism in a social context, the determined pursuit of justice, I would say are incumbent on Catholics.

Equally important is the need to resist mad utopian schemes to create heaven on earth. That tendency is a rebellion against God's edict expelling Adam and Eve from Eden & His judgement on the "cooperation" of the architects of Babel. It was arguably the impulse behind the American, French and Russian Revolutions. It informs much of masonic ideology, dreams of a technocratic New World Order, and is commonly known as 'Luciferianism'.

Whether the Jewish concept of tikkun can fairly be classed as a manifestation of this phenomenon, I can't say.

As for "racism" ... No-one denies God divided humanity into different peoples and I would agree with the Graecophile fellow that attempts to efface this obvious reality through aggressive 'anti-racist' or anti-nationalist propaganda reek of luciferian social engineering. He also acknowledged the dangers of the opposite tendency, which seeks to deny the different peoples' common humanity, eg National Socialism.

http://www.chabadtalk.com/forum/showthread.php3?t=3909

Cambrensis said...

>>You don't think the church had centuries old antisemitism?<<

I'm not aware of any centuries-old Church tradition of antisemitism, ie biological or mystical racial opposition to the Jews. If individual Catholics fall into this error - well that's what it is, a falling into error.

There is of course a centuries-old Church tradition of anti-Judaism, ie hostility toward the various rabbinic & talmudic cults, seen as deviations from the true religion of ancient Israel & implacably hostile to Christianity. Recent Vatican moves to renounce this tradition are a cause of traditionalists' quarrel with the Vatican, though obviously not the only or even the most important cause.

>>its leaders publicly repudiated their centuries-old 'antisemitism' and begged forgiveness for it."
I'm assuming you're talking about Vatican 2...<<

Vatican II, and numerous subsequent pronouncements & symbolic acts by Popes and lesser prelates, including formal recognition of the State of Israel.

<<"all the recent calamities that have befallen the Catholic Church ..." ... which calamities are you referring to?>>

The collapse of Christendom as a political entity & widespread apostasy from Christianity in the West leading to institutionalised immorality, widespread blasphemy & social disintegration. The weakening of discipline & morale within the Church's ranks, coupled with an abandonment of the traditional militant opposition to modernity, leading to a proliferation of heterodoxy and an appalling infestation of sodomites among the clergy. The disfiguring of the Mass. The clear signs of a coming persecution, either from Muslims or militant secularists:

http://www.limitstogrowth.org/WEB-Graphics/jesusslaveallah.jpg

http://www.christian.org.uk/issues/2006/gay_rights/gpa/advert.htm

Itzchak said...

"I would say one needs to put a great chasm between "improve" and "perfect" rather than yoke those two concepts together."
You don't think perfection
is possible...?
-----------------
It's interesting that working to improve (and even perfect)...we're created in the image of the Divine after all...
is considered a rebellion against the expulsion from the garden edict...
The Torah's understanding is that history is about undoing/fixing the original wrongdoing that got us kicked out and walking back in
as the collective children of Adam and Eve.
--------------------
"including formal recognition of the State of Israel."
Is this a 'bad' thing?...
I was born in Israel and served in the Israeli army and have lived there for a third of my life.
I would move back any time if I could (sitational reasons keep me from doing that now).
It's an awesome place, have you visited?

Cambrensis said...

>>You don't think perfection
is possible...?<<

Not for us, not in this vale of tears.

>>It's interesting that working to improve (and even perfect)...is considered a rebellion against the expulsion from the garden edict...<<

Again there's the all-important distinction between improvement and perfecting. The desire to embellish and beautify the world as far as possible, both aesthetically and morally, is admirable.

Catholics, who pray for God's will to be done on earth as it is in heaven, who admire the Middle Ages as a great flowering of human civilization, can hardly deny this.

But there are limits. To seek to completely refashion God's creation in humanity's own self-image is megalomania. It sees individual men as so much raw material to be moulded into the New Man of the New Era - with any recalcitrent matter being thrown into the rubbish bin. It leads to this sort of thing:

http://eee.uci.edu/faculty/losh/festivalofsupremebeing.jpeg

http://eee.uci.edu/faculty/losh/frenchimages/declaration10.jpg

>>The Torah's understanding is that history is about undoing/fixing the original wrongdoing that got us kicked out and walking back in
as the collective children of Adam and Eve.<<

Absolutely, the question is who does the fixing?

"The most idealised form of the medieval garden was the hortus conclusus - a Latin phrase meaning an enclosed garden. As depicted in manuscripts, the garden was usually an area of grass enclosed by a wall or tall hedge. Flowers were not planted in beds, but sown in the grass to grow as a ‘flowery mead’. ...
Medieval Christians saw the hortus conclusus as a symbol of the perpetual virginity of Christ’s mother, Mary. The metaphor was drawn from a verse in the Bible’s ‘Song of Solomon’ that declares: 'A garden enclosed is my sister, my spouse; a spring shut up, a fountain sealed.'
The Virgin’s garden was often imagined as a rose garden, a flower with which she was particularly identified. ... As Eve was seen as the cause of humanity’s banishment from the Garden of Eden, so Mary was seen as enabling its salvation through bearing Jesus."

'Death through Eve, life through Mary' - St Jerome

Cambrensis said...

>>"including formal recognition of the State of Israel."
Is this a 'bad' thing?...<<

Please understand my comment was not made in the spirit of someone who sees the State of Israel as one more thing to hate about the Jews & who would relish the prospect of its destruction.

At the end of the day, what you, I, Maurice Pinay, Rabbi Kook, the Pope or anybody else thinks about messianic Zionism counts for nothing - God will act as He sees fit.

The point of my remark was simply to illustrate what seems to me a puzzle - why the Vatican's efforts to show solidarity with the Jewish people on their own terms aren't meeting with the divine favour one might expect if your perspective on history were correct.

Itzchak said...

I think a clue can be found in the statement that described rivka was told when she went to find out what was going on inside her belly...
The dance of Jacob and Esau...

Itzchak said...

The distinction that it's ok/appropriate/right to be Anti Judaism...and not be considered anti-Semitic is nonsensical.
Its like saying 'your right hand is fine, it's your left hand that shouldn't exist.'
"I'm not aware of any centuries-old Church tradition of antisemitism, ie biological or mystical racial opposition to the Jews. ...
There is of course a centuries-old Church tradition of anti-Judaism, ie hostility toward the various rabbinic & talmudic cults, [which was the real historical sincere expression of the Jews, not some minority cult, it was the natural evolution from the temple period]seen as deviations from the true religion of ancient Israel [how extraordinarily arrogant to think that the collective will/intellect of the children of Israel is wrong and somebody [I guess Paul was the spokesman] say that now because they don't agree with him, they are deviant to the truth]& implacably hostile to Christianity.[to the claim that this guy was the long promised Messiah even though he does not fulfill any of the criteria; sorry to disagree but it's not in order to be hostile, it's simply our best understanding of the truth.We're in the covenant and we're not going to step out of it because some guy says to.

Cambrensis said...

"...and the elder shall serve the younger"

Cambrensis said...

"The distinction that it's ok/appropriate/right to be Anti Judaism...and not be considered anti-Semitic is nonsensical. Its like saying 'your right hand is fine, it's your left hand that shouldn't exist."

So if I call Islam a false religion it means I hate Arabs??

"various rabbinic & talmudic cults, [which was the real historical sincere expression of the Jews, not some minority cult, it was the natural evolution from the temple period]"

Never said the rabbinites were a minority, but how can rabbinic/talmudic Judaism be a natural development of temple worship without a temple to worship in?

"seen as deviations from the true religion of ancient Israel [how extraordinarily arrogant to think that the collective will/intellect of the children of Israel is wrong and somebody [I guess Paul was the spokesman] say that now because they don't agree with him, they are deviant to the truth]"

That's a very interesting expression, 'the collective will/intellect of the children of Israel'. Who decides what that is at any given time? You yourself admit the greatest rabbis can be & have been wrong.

Was it not because the 'collective will/intellect of the children of Israel' had gone astray that God raised up Prophets to rebuke them and call them back to the true path?

By your logic, Moses had no right to condemn the cult of the golden calf.

Surely Vox Dei outranks Vox Populi no matter what the Talmud says?

Itzchak said...

"how can rabbinic/talmudic Judaism be a natural development of temple worship without a temple to worship in?"

There are many excellent books that would help you understand the organic evolution of 'Temple' Judaism to 'Rabbinic' Judaism and explain how the process is built in to the Torah."
--------
The Anshei Knesset HaGdolah-the Men Of the Great Assembly is the key..
Here is a primer on it:
http://www.ou.org/about/judaism/anshei.htm

Itzchak said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Itzchak said...

Deuteronomy 17: 9-11 is the basic source text for the 'rabbinic' process...

Itzchak said...

"...and the elder shall serve the younger"
The civilization of Esau which became Europe which became Christianity shall serve the civilization of Jacob
ultimately...

Itzchak said...

To help you understand our perspective on the historical unfolding. This is from a significant contemporary rabbi:
In the biblical period, Jewish peoplehood was organized around a religious vision and mission commanded by God. God led the Israelites from Egyptian slavery to freedom in the Promised Land and intervened in their history constantly. The way to reach the Deity was through sacrifices (hence priests supplied religious leadership) and/or through prophets (who brought instructions and channeled a direct word from God).

When individual tribes in Israel could no longer adequately defend against invaders, a central monarchy emerged to replace the tribal chieftains. As the Israelites settled down, a permanent Holy Temple became the centralized point for sacrifice and for communication with God - as experienced in the High Priest's Urim V'Tumim Oracles.

The cosmic Lord was so manifest in the Temple that there could hardly be any other efficacious place to serve or address God. In the 6th century BCE, the Babylonian exile temporarily led to the creation of local synagogues for study and community observance. But within a century the Israelites returned and rebuilt a central Temple; the synagogue remained a minor institution.

THE DESTRUCTION of the Second Temple and exile led to a fundamental change in the Jewish condition and brought with it new religious understanding. With the loss of sovereignty, kingship disappeared. Without a Temple, the priests' role shriveled.

The rabbinic understanding was that God had self-limited and "allowed" the destruction in order to call humans to greater responsibility in the covenant. God would no longer intervene visibly, and humans would need to uncover God's word.

Prophecy disappeared as direct messages from God lost their credibility. The more hidden God - no longer "visible" or concentrated in Jerusalem - could be approached all over the world, although through prayer, not sacrifices. Thus synagogues spread.

The people had to be educated; only in this way could they internalize Jewish values and live them even as a minority in a foreign land. Shabbat and Talmud Torah became central to Jewish life.

Over a period of centuries, the Rabbis became the new leadership; synagogues - which were prayer, study and assembly centers - and academies emerged as the core institutions.

The liturgy and many new rituals told the story of exile and destruction alongside the narratives of Creation, Exodus and future redemption. In the medieval period, lay communal leadership allied with the rabbis.

These institutions proved adequate to carry the Jewish people through two millennia.

Modernity initiated drastic changes in the Jewish condition. As modern secular culture spread among Jews, lay leadership and secular institutions, such as community centers and federations, emerged.

THE HOLOCAUST and the creation of Israel supplied the decisive transformational thrust to Jewish life.

God again self-limited (not intervening to stop the attempted total genocide), calling humans to a higher level of responsibility in the covenant. This development was expressed in the secular leadership - generals, pioneers, politicians - who led in the creation of the Jewish state."...and it goes on but it's enough for now...

Cambrensis said...

Itzchak - thanks for the link, very interesting. That image of an unseen God secretly watching events unfold from 'behind a curtain' is most evocative.

This idea of God withdrawing Himself from participation in the affairs of men to call forth a 'higher level of responsibility' - is it supposed that the messianic age/rebuilding of the temple will occur when that level has been reached? If so, it seems we're in for a long wait ...

Here's a completely different perspective on things:

http://www.geocities.com/athens/rhodes/3543/democ.htm

Itzchak said...

"This idea of God withdrawing Himself from participation in the affairs of men to call forth a 'higher level of responsibility' - is it supposed that the messianic age/rebuilding of the temple will occur when that level has been reached? If so, it seems we're in for a long wait ..."

Not necessarily...the renaissance/return to/in Israel is understood as being a HUGE step..
and in the worst possible case it has to all happen within the next 234 years...
by the year 6000, we're in 5667...
six days of the week, Shabbat
six thousand years of history, Messianic age....but just like we can call Shabbat in earlier on Friday afternoon, the Messianic age can start earlier, any day now...

Itzchak said...

"Here's a completely different perspective on things:"


Yep, that is a completely different perspective...

Itzchak said...

What is the attitude of traditional (radical?) RC's to marrying non RC's?

Cambrensis said...

>>What is the attitude of traditional (radical?) RC's to marrying non RC's?<<


http://fisheaters.com/holymatrimony.html