Wednesday, December 8, 2010

"I learned to be a faithful 'Jew' from Pope John Paul II"

This is a follow-up to In Benedict's Own Words: His Latin Good Friday Prayer and "Papal Ambiguity" has a Clear Trajectory. Recall that Pope Benedict says his theology of "The Jews" is, "in absolute continuity with John Paul II." When John Paul II's conductor, Gilbert Levine says he learned to be a faithful "Jew" from the Pope, he is, of course, referring to faith in Kabbalah/Talmud, Zionism and "Holocaust" sanctification.

... To [Pope John Paul II's Judaic conductor, Gilbert] Levine’s surprise, and to the surprise of his Jewish friends, the pope never suggested that the conductor, “a proud Jew,” consider Catholicism. Not a word about conversion. John Paul II respected Levine’s growing religious observance, once giving him a bronze menorah as a gift.

“I learned to be a faithful Jew from him
because of his profound spirituality,” says Levine, who was often accompanied to his papal meeting by his wife, mother-in-law and two sons.

Levine was invested as Knight Commander of the Pontifical Equestrian Order of St. Gregory the Great in 1994, earning him the title of “Sir” and making him the first American Jew so knighted by the Vatican. In 2005, he received another papal honor, the Silver Star of Saint Gregory, the highest rank of pontifical nobility achieved by a Jew. The star was awarded in Washington by Benedict XVI, but the awarding process had begun under John Paul II ... " ("Concerto For Interfaith Dialogue: Conductor Gilbert Levine reflects on his musical and personal relationship with Pope John Paul II," Steve Lipman, December 7, 2010, The Jewish Week)

http://www.thejewishweek.com/arts/books/concerto_interfaith_dialogue

19 comments:

Michael Hoffman said...

Astute research as usual, Maurice!

Forgive the neologism, but the popularity of the honorific “John Paul the Great” (Pope JP-II), is, methinks, a code word for continuing the “Talmudification" of the Catholic Church.

Between this trend and the continued harboring of notorious molesters such as Cardinals Bernard Law and Roger Mahony and one witnesses the downfall of Rome.

Maurice Pinay said...

You're very kind, Michael.

Indeed, the buildings may still be standing but Rome is in ruins nonetheless.

Maurice Pinay said...

I mistakenly deleted this comment from "Dutch Boy" December 9, 2010 2:10 PM:

"Why would the modern popes who have ignored the doctrine of no salvation outside the Church care if a man remained a Jew (or a Protestant)? Perhaps Mr. Hoffman would not find a return to such orthodoxy entirely to his liking."

Maurice Pinay said...

Dutch Boy writes: "Why would the modern popes who have ignored the doctrine of no salvation outside the Church care if a man remained a Jew (or a Protestant)?


I answer: Why would Popes who nullify the Gospel pay heed to doctrines based upon it?

---

Dutch Boy writes: "Perhaps Mr. Hoffman would not find a return to such orthodoxy entirely to his liking."


I answer: Whatever it is you're suggesting, it seems to me that there are many traditionalists who think that a 'return to orthodoxy' is possible to people who forsake the radical truths of the Gospel. I can tell you that nothing orthodox will grow that doesn't stem from the radix; the root, which is the Gospel.

Anonymous said...

Gospel = No Salvation Outside the Mystical Body of Christ, The Ark of Noah, the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. You're either visibly on this ship or off it.

As Father Feeney put it “There is no salvation outside the Catholic Church nor without personal submission to our Holy Father, the Pope. Anyone who does not believe this doctrine is a heretic.”

I think what Dutch Boy is driving at is that Mr Hoffman does not believe this foundational Doctrine of the Gospel as understood by the Church of Christ for he has it that Protestants can be saved outside of visible union with the Catholic Church and without personal submission to the Vicar of Christ on Earth.

One hopes Mr. Pinay that you stop mimicking Hoffman's "overturn the Gospel" this and "nullify the Gospel" that gobbledygook. For I wouldnt even know what the Gospel was if the Church of God didnt tell me "This is the Gospel." Therefore a True Apostle speaks thus :

"To those outside the Roman Catholic Church —

Believe in the Faith that Jesus Christ gave to His Apostles; accept His Vicar; and be baptized — otherwise you will surely perish.

And to all Catholics —

In the spirit of true Catholic Ecumenism, let it ever be your mission to make this message known to your non-Catholic friends and associates — otherwise you lack true charity."

Maurice Pinay said...

Anonymous 8:29 writes: Gospel = No Salvation Outside the Mystical Body of Christ, The Ark of Noah, the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. You're either visibly on this ship or off it.

As Father Feeney put it “There is no salvation outside the Catholic Church nor without personal submission to our Holy Father, the Pope. Anyone who does not believe this doctrine is a heretic.”


*

The rigorist gospel of Feeny, which you're apparently a follower of, was condemned by the Pope who Fr. Feeney says everyone should submit to and yet disobeyed himself finding himself excommunicated from "the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church" "outside of which there is no salvation." You undermine your own argument.

If it's as simple as blind "submission to our Holy Father" then follow him and his gospel which teaches that to so much as pray for baptism and repentance of "The Jews" is to "wound them." Or use your discernment to judge that "the Vicar of Christ on Earth;" the head of "the Mystical Body of Christ, The Ark of Noah, the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church" "outside of which there is no salvation" is teaching a false gospel which leads to damnation.

Anonymous 8:29 writes: One hopes Mr. Pinay that you stop mimicking Hoffman's "overturn the Gospel" this and "nullify the Gospel" that gobbledygook. For I wouldnt even know what the Gospel was if the Church of God didnt tell me "This is the Gospel."

*

One would hope you would put down the gospel of Feeney and read the Gospel of Jesus in which he absolutely opposes nullification of Scripture by people who say Scripture means whatever they say it means. If you were as familiar with the Gospel of Christ as you are with the gospel of Feeney you wouldn't embarrass yourself by ridiculing Jesus' teaching on Scripture nullification. Clearly, Jesus' teaching on traditions which make the word of God of no effect is hidden to many of these people who self-define as "traditionalists."

You're a house divided against itself. If the Gospel is whatever the "Church of God" says it is, then you should submit to what its head, "our Holy Father," the defender of child predators, teaches of it. What right do you or Fr. Feeney have to put your discernment above the teaching of "the Vicar of Christ on Earth;" the head of the "Church of God"?

Anonymous said...

For one who is commended at the beginning of this thread for his "Astute research as usual, Maurice!" it is sad to see such an appetitive reaction. You clearly have not done your homework on the so-called "Boston Heresy Case." So sad.

Ask Mr Hoffman, (and many have tried) if he believes Protestants can be saved outside of visible union with the Catholic Church.

Maurice Pinay said...

What does Fr. Feeney have to do with anything here in the first place? Find someplace else to argue your thoughts about Feeneyism. Likewise your beliefs about Michael Hoffman.

The topic is your "Holy Father" who we all "must submit to" or suffer eternal damnation. Either submit to him and cease your rigorism which he condemns, or admit that your rigorism leads to ruin under bad popes like him.

Anonymous said...

If you believe Protestants beyond the age of reason who worship a false-Christ of their own making can be saved outside of visible baptized membership into the Holy Roman Church than from your logic Jews who worship themselves as a sort of Messiah can be saved also.

If you follow this chain-of-logic as Hoffman seems to, you are a Heretic.

The Scripturally-founded, Thrice-Defined Dogma of Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus is pertinent to the conversation at hand.

Maurice Pinay said...

Don't be afraid to follow the chain of your own logic. Where does it lead people who submit to "our Holy Father" and the false Christ of his own making? Evidently, to the portico of the synagogue.

Anonymous said...

"...whether it be possible for him (the Pope) to err or not, is to be obeyed by all the faithful." St. Robert Bellarmine, De Romano Pontifice, pt. 5, (quoted in Apostolic Digest, by Michael Malone, Book 5: "The Book of Obedience", Chapter 1: "There is No Salvation Without Personal Submission to the Pope").

"It is error to believe that, if the Pope were a reprobate and an evil man and consequently a member of the devil, he has no power over the faithful." Council of Constance, Condemnation of Errors, against Wycliffe, Session VIII, and Hus: Session XV; DNZ:621, 617, 588, (quoted in Apostolic Digest, by Michael Malone, Book 5: "The Book of Obedience", Chapter 1: "There is No Salvation Without Personal Submission to the Pope").

"Even if the Pope were Satan incarnate, we ought not to raise up our heads against him, but calmly lie down to rest on his bosom. He who rebels against our Father is condemned to death, for that which we do to him we do to Christ: we honor Christ if we honor the Pope; we dishonor Christ if we dishonor the Pope. I know very well that many defend themselves by boasting: "They are so corrupt, and work all manner of evil!" But God has commanded that, even if the priests, the pastors, and Christ-on-earth were incarnate devils, we be obedient and subject to them, not for their sakes, but for the sake of God, and out of obedience to Him." St. Catherine of Siena, SCS, p. 201-202, p. 222, (quoted in Apostolic Digest, by Michael Malone, Book 5: "The Book of Obedience", Chapter 1: "There is No Salvation Without Personal Submission to the Pope").

"It is error to believe that, if the Pope were wicked and reprobate, then he is of the devil and is not head of the Church Militant..." Pope Martin V, Inter Cunctas et in Eminentis, DNZ:646, (quoted in Apostolic Digest, by Michael Malone, Book 5: "The Book of Obedience", Chapter 1: "There is No Salvation Without Personal Submission to the Pope").

Come on Pinay, "Let your talk be, yea, yea: no, no" Lets see where you stand. Here is the line in the sand. Can Protestants who die in their false faith be saved?

Maurice Pinay said...

There is no salvation in the Noahide religion of John Paul II or Benedict XVI or in Protestantism or any other Church than the one founded by Jesus Christ. Whether any individual attains salvation despite his membership in false religions or no religion; only God knows.

Now please, take your torturous rigorism to one of the many places of argument that caters to that kind of thing.

Anonymous said...

"Whether any individual attains salvation despite his membership in false religions or no religion; only God knows." - Pinay

JP II or Benedict XVI couldn't have said it better.

Now which I might ask is the Church founded by Jesus Christ. Is it the Church of Maurice Pinay and Michael Hoffman? The church that does not pray for Peter in the hour of his denial?

Methinks you adhere to your own "church of the gospel" and not the Gospel of the Church?

Maurice Pinay said...

Anonymous 10:05 AM writes: "JP II or Benedict XVI couldn't have said it better."

Apparently, anyone who doesn't say it like Feeney and yourself is damned.

Anonymous 10:05 AM writes: "Now which I might ask is the Church founded by Jesus Christ.

Jesus founded one Church: the Catholic Church. For you to suggest that I have ever said differently is based in ignorance, malice or something else other than my words. If you'd follow the commandments as rigorously as you follow Feeneyism you'd apologize for bearing false witness.


Anonymous 10:05 AM writes: "Is it the Church of Maurice Pinay and Michael Hoffman? The church that does not pray for Peter in the hour of his denial?"

I certainly pray that you'll stop bearing false witness against people who don't adhere to your torturous rigorism.

I pray for "Jews," Protestants, atheists, Hindus, Muslims, et al. I pray for Benedict XVI and those like yourself who submit to him and his false Christ.


Anonymous 10:05 AM writes: "Methinks you adhere to your own 'church of the gospel' and not the Gospel of the Church?"

Evidently, you're a great lover of argument for its own sake. If you must persist in needlessly torturing yourself and others find one of the many forums that caters to that sort of thing.

Anonymous said...

Obedience to a Perfidious Pontiff is at the heart of the moral dilemma facing true Catholics today. It is quite a quagmire of an issue but not that different from the problems faced by Elizabethan Catholics. Note that those Catholics who lost their lives under Elizabeth and who did not recognize her as their lawful sovereign are not on the Church's rolls of saintly martyrs. Your tirades against those who personally submit to those who sit upon the Chair of Peter out of an act of Christ-like humility sounds too much like the serpents ancient battle cry, "Non-Serviam." No Maurice, those self-styled catholics who cry out abandon ship were never Catholics to begin with. "They went out from us..."

Maurice Pinay said...

"...tirades against those who personally submit to those who sit upon the Chair of Peter ..."

What is the basis for this accusation? I've said I'm praying for them. I have as much mercy on these poor souls as I do sedevacantists, scandalized souls who leave the Church, et al. Like Jesus, my indignation is directed primarily towards the hypocrites sitting in Moses' seat, not laity. Can the same be said of you? Not if your writings here are representative.

Anonymous said...

As a Protestant looking in from the outside, I compare
the simplicity of the Gospel to the tortuous hair-splitting intellectual imbroglios of the Catholic sects
and wonder if they have all missed the boat somehow.

If it is humility and virtue to submit to evil religious or secular leaders, why were the apostles imprisoned or pursued and persecuted by the authorities for their unwillingness to submit to commands which were evidently seen as contrary to the teachings of Jesus Christ? Will the rigorists explain why their rigor mortis is life?

How so? Even if I am to trust somebody much wiser than I, e.g., the Pope, still it is I who must decide who I should trust. There is no getting around the imperatives of life or the responsibility
of making our own decisions.

Woe to those who call evil good, or good evil, says
the prophet Jeremiah. To say the I owe my allegiance to an evil religious leader and must honor him to honor God is to simply advise me to
condone evil, to justify it, to encourage it therefore.

I do not understand the thinking of those who say
I must submit to an evil "Pope" or be damned. I am
required to support high treason against the King of Heaven, then, to honor the King of Heaven?

No wonder there is no more unity in the Catholic
kingdom and the sheep are dispersed as the wolves
approach. Yet it is not the evil shepherds that they blame but the sheep.

Anonymous said...

If the Church of the Living God, the Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church, the pillar and ground of truth which if one does not hear he shall be regarded as a heathen and publican and out of which there is neither salvation nor remission of sins infallibly teaches "we declare, affirm, define, and pronounce it to be necessary to salvation for every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff." then obviously, whether a Pope be wicked or not, every human creature must remain subject to Him.

Maurice Pinay said...

One run through your talking points is enough. I wish peace on your unnecessarily tortured soul.